[Reponses Sl. Nos.1 to 29]
See Theme-note at the end. No. 30.
1. K.P. Sasi.
I could not see adivasi spirituality in your list. Perhaps a genuine search into this area can
change the perception of politics today.
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2. Prof. Udayakumar , Delhi
. I do think that further research on this issue is very necessary in India, especially in
Kerala.
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3. Swami Vinaya Chaitanya, Bangalore.
Dropping out from the social context withdrawing to some extent from playing the game of
life as it is played around, so that one can gain some perspective on what is going on, are
all implied in the tradition of sanyasa or tyaga. Founders of all major religions or spiritual
traditions have always seen to have rebelled against deadening/overweighing
theocratic/religious structures of their times. But it also is to be noted that the movements
started in such spirits also become equally heavy on the frail human spirit.
I would distinguish spirituality or the essential living core, as the humans natural
aspiration to be in union with the life around her; as well as the effort to visualise and
emulate the highest felicity or happiness within oneself. Religion, the, would be the
peripheral/incidental dos and donts etc. like the bark of a tree, often dead or
dying. If the life within the tree is strong, firmly rooted, open to light, life keeps growing
and death is overcome, daily. If the life force is weak within, the dying/deadening outer
conditions can kill the tree altogether.
The duality between spirit and matter is false and recent one. Happiness results only
when spirit and matter are in harmony. Since we all seek happiness, spirituality is innate
within us. Whereas, the religion has social and other factors complicating it. Also to be
noted in this specific context is that sad yet telling fact that religious spirituality as it exists
now is exclusively mans; with no place for women and children in it. And even
the women practitioners themselves become like men. The split between body and mind or
spirit is also mans. May be the question really is can there be spirituality without
the body?
Not that any of these ideas are new. Examples of counter-points to the conventional
mores are many, in mythology as well as in history. It just needs openness and willingness
to listen to deeper, smaller, stiller voices within us. I also often wonder why Kerala is being
advertised the wold over as gods own country, while we all know that actually it
is the country of the goddess! Why did our ancestors find nothing derogatory in
worshipping and celebrating the eternal coupling of Siva and Parvati, our prime parents?
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4. Dr. P. Madhu, Kuttippuram.
The phrase 'religious spirituality' appeared to me an oxymoron. Denominal, sectarian
divisions are typically part an parcel of religions; spirituality in that sense is neither social
nor historical.
Co-opting what may be called spirituality by religion- i do not think- one entity called
religion co-opting another entity 'spirituality'; rather religion had always wearing the mask
of spirituality. In other words, spirituality is only the 'front stage of the religious
dramaturgy.
Religion is 'ideological in Marxian sense, where as spirituality has no 'ideology'. If
spirituality is a spring that freshly springs out, religion is just a gutter that collects all
ideologies from past to present and into future. Hence I said religion is historical. Religion
forces one to be conformatory; Spirituality forces no conformity to established norms or
dogma. Religions always do 'social engineering'- spirituality has no such engineering
dimension. Religions are products and transmitters of 'power' that runs through the social
vein. Being spiritual is to transcending the gutter of power. Hence, spirituality will always be
dissenting.
Does spirituality have anything with faith in divinity? Can faitheads be spiritual? Religion
needs faith. Because religion wants its members faithfully subscribing to it. Faith indeed
de-spiritualizes. radicals of faith, are just radicals of faith- it may be a misnomer to call
them 'spiritual radicals'
Spirituality knows no 'sacredness'- religions survive by terrors of sacred claim.
I do not think spirituality has to be understood in contra distinction to religion alone.
Spirituality can be understood in contradistinction to any ideology. However, since religion
uses spirituality as its mask, religion occupies a special place in the contra distinctive
objects.
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5. A.V. G. Warier, Ernakulam.
jagrat svapna sushuptishu sphutatara
ya samvidujrumbhate
ya brahmadi pipeelikantatanushu
prota jagatsakshinee
saivaham na cha drushyavastviti
drudhaprajnapi yasyasti chet
chandalostu dvijostu
gururityesha manisha mama
Is not the gurutva envisaged by the master the central theme of spirituality?
In the name of Shankara we seem to be walking away from him. We seem to be saying -
whatever you may say about spirituality we are here not only to perpetuate divisions but
also to amplify its scope.
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6. Dr. Ajay Sekher, Kottayam.
In response to K P Sasi's comment that adivasi spirituality can also be included, we can only
say that the term dalit spirituality or subaltern spirituality incorporates all the minor and
alternative streams in terms of culture, ethnicity, gender, caste, religion and language. The
politics and purview of the term dalit/subaltern need to be comprehended before hand in a
discussion like this.
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7. Dr. P. Madhu.
The 'civilized' [sarcasm intended] started talking about spirituality
only when they wanted to mask something else in that name. The
discussion/ discourse concerning spirituality becomes possible only when
something 'non-spiritual' identified/recognized/feared--
no non/anti spiritual, there exists no need to discuss spiritual though
one can be very much spiritual otherwise.... truth is necessitated only
when there exists/recognized/felt falsehood... when no falsehood is
recognized/felt there is no necessity for any discussion of truth.
What was the thing necessitated adivasi/ dalit spirituality discourse?
what was the thing masked in such a 'spirituality'? What is this
spirituality to do with dalit/adivasi religiosities? To what extension
the contradistinctions possible between dalit/adivasi religiosities and
spiritualities? Is it analytically sound to club adivasi and dalit
spiritualities/ religiosities together?--- Are dalits and adivasis share
same history- to have similar religiosities?
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8.Fr. Gasper, Kalady.
What is the role of reason in spirituality? Spirituality V/S Corporeality?
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9. Swami. Vyasa Prasad, Ooty.
I felt I was entering a New Age book shop. I guess professors and academics
need neatly labeled categories to work with. Instead of an outsider trying
to look inside, it would help to reverse the gaze.
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10.Dr. T. Girish, Kottayam
Remember Aristotles theory of "Form and Matter"? Can we not say, that if religion is Form,
then Spirituality is the matter?
I mean, Spirituality is the reality, which requires some sort of form to exist. I do not know if
spirituality could exist just as spirituality, as matter can not exist other than through some
or the other forms. Perhaps religion is the mode for spirituaity; the yana, or soome kind of
carrier.
Nonetheless, spirituality shall be the essence, the in thing, that really distinguishes man
from not-man.
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11. Chindhu, Thiruvananthapuram.
I am more concerned about the social functioning of the spiritual or religious or quasi-
religious movements. It's a historically proven fact that the spiritual or religious or quasi-
religious movements have done its contribution to humanity. We can find evidence in the
renaissance history of Europe, India and Kerala.
One main characteristic of any branch of science is its predictability. We could predict a
future phenomena based on the theories and data available today. In social science also we
are doing the same in several areas like demography, economic changes etc. is it possible
to predict one spiritual or religious or quasi-religious movement using social indicators? If
it is possible what should be the indicators to be used?
We desperately need a paradigm shift in assessing the spiritual or religious or quasi-
religious movements/institutions. It will be a better contribution especially in the context of
the contemporary debates in Kerala on such movements and/or institutions and/or persons
involved in spiritual or religious or quasi-religious activities.
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12. Philip George,Kottayam.
Well, you have rightly pointed out the concepts of religion and spirituality are not mutually
exclusive. Religion and Spirituality, both are embedded with a particular form of ideological
perception. It is highly notable that you have touched upon a religionless spirituality. Since
spirituality and religion are not mutually exclusive, naturally there can be a doubt why
someone should search for finding the dissident streams of spirituality.
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13. Dr. P. Madhu
Here I refer to the form-matter discussion initiated by Dr. Girish. In
Aristotelian sense, it seems spirituality rather than religion would be
thought as form; for Aristotle 'form' is the primary substance- which
gives unity to the 'matter'. Form for Aristotle is more real than
matter; form is conceptualized in Aristotle as reminiscent of the sole
reality of the ideas.Aristotle's form semble more alike Plato's idea.
Seen from Aristotelian sense, hence, i suspect whether 'religion' can be
taken as 'form' . This is how i learnt the form-matter concept of
aristotle. If I am wrong I would like to be corrected.
In the modern sense of the term it can be said that what we see in the
religion-spirituality relationship is that the 'form' (external shape,
shell) annihilating 'matter' (substance, content). The beauty of the
argument of 'spirit' its is formlessness, its incorporeality! Spiritual
claims are just masks worn by religions. Spirituality is just like the
shell worn by the hermit crabs. Religion only wears the shell of
spirituality. Inside the shell what flourishes is nothing more than
narrow identities, communal separatism and the politics emerging from
such identity positions. hence i once wrote religion is historical and
social where are spirituality has no compulsion to be social or historical.
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14.Prof. Sanil. V, Delhi.
This is a very significant topic for a workshop. You have proposed many
creative possibilities. Perhaps it is better to focus on a specific
historical era in kerala history or on a set of personalities.
Most recent discussions on spirituality try hard to distinguish or
distance spirituality from institutionalized religion. Religion is equated
with orthodoxy and spirituality is seen as a dissenting core. I doubt this
way of posing problem will lead us to any understanding of religion,
spirituality or dissent.
Another challenge lies in equating spirituality with morality. In many
recent discussions spirituality seems to be this moral work we do on
ourselves so that we can control our emotions, desires and appear and clam
and cool. I do not think ethics needs this spirital support! How can we
free spirituality from this user-friendly ethics? How can we think about
dissidence as a meeting point of politics and spirituality while
suspending the claims of ethics? These are some of the isses which
interest me. more later
15.Prof. K. Satchidanandan, Delhi.
I am interested in the interface between the spirtual and the physical on the one
hand(remember the Tamil saivites or Kannada Veerasasivas who attached great importance
to the body and labour_ Kayaka is Kailasa, Basavanna) and spiritual and the social/ethical on
the opther( Narayana, Vivekananda, Gandhi) both these being parts of a whole, the body
being the point of entry into the social/ethical as in Narayana.Look at things from below.
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16. Prof. C. P. Sivadasan, Vatakara.
You have indeed chosen a very significant topic relevant to the Kerala society.
I think that in kerala problems arise partly because religion is mistaken for ritual even by
the socalled educated people.The problem becomes all the more complicated when religion
is made an instrument for gaining power and money. I dont know whether I am off the track
with respect to the main theme.But I feel that this can also be taken into consideration
within the ambit of the discussions.
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17. Prof. Manjulika Ghosh, North Bengal Universiy.
Is there any family resemblance running through the different types of spirituality you have
thought up? Is there, on the contrary, any essence-spirituality, the different spiritualities
being the manifestations of the essential structure? There should have been mention of
Sufism as a dissident form of spirituality specially when Kerala is the focus, its having a
sizeable Muslim population.
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18. A.V. G. Warrier
Often I feel that the process of thinking in this country is skewed by the obsession with
dalithood and related topics. Is not Brahma as the original dalit? He had to pull himself out
from his dalithood by tapas before the models for creation dawned in his awareness.
Dalithood is not an ideal but a state from which one should come out. Is not the focus on
dissidence an attempt to return to dalithood where ones concerns are modified
by several factors like politics, social realities etcetera?The sheer numbers of dalits is a
matter of great interest for a politician in a democracy. But should it be so for a
philosopher?!!
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19. Swami. Vinaya chaitanya.
Just wondering if it would help us understand the religion/spirituality
dichotomy if we look at it in terms of cosmology/psychology; that religion
is mostly about cosmological or theological explication of life/creation
etc., while spirituality is more of a psychologically biased enquiry into
one's own being.
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20. Prof. Bhagawan Dass Lahoti, Hyderabad.
proposed debate is interesting but it will be tough to manage.
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21. Dr. P. Madhu.
The meaning of spirituality happens when we mean it. It can be meant as
something contrasted to the dogmatic or sectarian religiosities or it
can be dismissed as platitudinous if not nonsense. What passes in the
name of spirituality is often something of a sham, fueled by pretension
and dominated by hypocrisy. However, these do not explain what
spirituality is.
Spiritý in spirituality reminds me of being spirited being in good
spirit, being enthusiastic, passionate, shared passion, team spirit etc.
Spiritý is being socially concerned. it represents our sense of
participation and membership in a humanity and a world much larger than
our individual selves. Spiritý is the spirit of truthfulness contrasted
to the seduction into falsities. Being spiritual is being thoughtful,
inquiring, and trying to know the spirit of reality. Following Hegel it
can be said that spirituality is the passionate sense of self-awareness
in which the very distinction between selfishness and selflessness
disappears.
Spirituality need not be conceptualized as other worldly or alien from
our existence. Spirituality opens us to the new logic that liberates us
from narrow individualist essentialism..
Deferring from Prof. Sanil I hold that there is possibility of ethics and morality in this regime
too as it is possible in the regime of non-spiritual individuality. In other
words, outside and within spiritualities ethics and morality is
possible. The heart of spirituality is heartfelt activity filled with
intelligent feeling, action, reason, and passion together. Shutting
spirituality outside the regime of morality or ethics would be
synonymous to shutting wisdom from the regime of morality and ethics. It
should be observed that wisdom too is as amorphous as spirituality is!
Spirituality should not be confused with the renunciation of the
material, sensual, and social joys of life. It does not require becoming
a hermit, an eccentric, or an ascetic. It does not require the refusal
of comforts, luxuries, and erotic delights. Being spiritual is not just
being in solitude alone rather it is realizing the spirit of collective
co-existence. One need not live in sackcloth to be spiritual, as the
Buddha finally discovered in his explorations..
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22. Words of late. Karunakaraguru, Santhigiri Ashramam, Thiruvananthapuram [forwarded
by Chindhu]
When you say spiritual knowledge, mostly it is a spirituality practiced by tradition.
The person who could judge on this is the one who has known all principles in detail, and
realizing the harm and damage, wishes to enlighten us. Only such a person could enlighten
us. Would it be alright to practice gender discrimination, keeping away women and making
it a men's privilege? That means we have not even thought about what rights women have.
Somebody please tell me if you believe that all mothers women who have lived as
mother, wife, daughter or sister have suffered. Only if you ask me could I explain and
help you realize. But if you say, 'No, I am a rationalist and nobody could enter my house', I
have nothing to say.ý
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22. Prasanthy Biju, Kollom.
we have to prove the spiritualism is applicable to all people, ie not only only for the high
class soicety but also for layaman .. we need that type of work
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23. Dr. Marc Lambert, Paris
Sometimes the things that youre going through come
more real to you than the things you believe or
understand , Vincente Minelli, film director. The
(most important ?) problem of spirituality : at the
same time it is anchored in social life AND individual
and emotional experience ; spiritual experience being
supposedly one of the greatest emotional peaks one can
expect to reach, the will to share that experience
with others appears to be a natural human behaviour.
Can we teach spirituality through readings - we can
certainly discuss spirituality in human sciences and
philosophy -, or is it a personal evolution, a
discovery you make once you meet someone ? There are
things in the world which are neither reassuring, nor
explicable. (Alain Robbe Grillet, writer). How can
we talk and share it without hurting
everyones convictions ? Being socially organized
with(in) religions, should imply sharing some wider
basic vision or a project, instead of imposing a type
of path each spiritual master claims to be narrow.
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24. Prof. M. Gangadharan, Parappanangadi.
Spirituality is for me the values such as kindness, love, tolerance, sympathy for fellow
beings, aesthetic sense, concern and appreciation of nature in its varied manifestations,
sense of harmony wth the opposite sex, `ahimsa', etc that human social life has generated
through centuries of its existence.
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25. Prof. G. Gangadharan Nair, Atlanta.
Religious practices of the present, as the present party politics, do more harm to society
than good. Selfishness rules riot in them. When the devilish man corrupts the society in the
name of spirituality, there should be some corrective steps leading to reformation. In India ,
Valmiki, whom the present day jargon could term Adivasi, and Vyasa, son of a Dalit woman,
in the present sense of the word, could propagate the fundamentals of spiritualism among
all sections of society.
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26. Dr. George Pattery
It is an interesting topic to deal with. I am interested in discussing it from various angles,
especially from the point of view of spirituality and religion. The institutionalization of
religion often weakens, at times destroys spirituality....
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27. Chindhu
My concern is not about an immediate realization of the self. Let it come as it is. The
concern is about the social change as spiritual or religious movements always contributed
to some or other changes in the society.
One of the main characteristic of science is its predictability. So my attempt is to predict the
social change to be caused by a spiritual or religious movement.
Emile Durkheim points out the role of religious individualism in the increased number of
suicides among the Protestants compared to that of Catholics in his famous study 'Suicide
A Study in Sociology' (p158). The same religious individualism made its contribution to the
development of capitalism as pointed out by Max Weber (The protestant Ethics and The
Spirit of Capitalism).
So my doubt is about the concept 'Aham Brahmasmi'. Was it promoting some kind of
religious individualism in the Indian context? We could refer to Kancha Ilayya's observation
that the rate of exploitation was very high among the higher class Brahmins in Indian
society where as among the Dalits it was comparatively less. Was it because of the religious
individualism propagated through 'chathurvakyas'?
If theories of salvation really play a role in molding human personality, a theory which
promotes salvation attained only through the fulfillment of the needs of all dependent
souls, which include all living and non-living entities result in creating a more socialist
society? Is it possible to predict on the social change to be caused through a spiritual or
religious movement by analyzing the theories of salvation promoted by that particular
spiritual or religious movement?
Shall we consider the theory of salvation promoted by a particular spiritual or religious
movement as a valid indicator to predict its contribution to the social phenomena?
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28. Marc Lambert ; Paris university, Vincennes Saint-Denis
Possible tracks:
Some good entities in certain religions are considered as devilish in others. Mortification has been practised for centuries in catholic religion, especially in Middle Age, and then has been officialy denied. Torture was currently used by the Church (for the sake of the soul), meanwhile touching somebody is still one of the most codified activity in any culture.
Dissidence : sitting far away , but not being directly in opposition or involved in a social or/and political fight. Dissidence is indeed an attitude which is not inevitably steered against something, but which implies a discord or a distance taken with a power or a political authority.
In Europe, in spite of any historic legitimition, religion as an institution constitutes a safe railing for the central political power. Religion allows to question the existence in an established moral frame; therefore it strengthens and legitimises the State catholic religion, and its reforms. We can see nowadays with Moslem religion (islam as a new power and human constituent within the state), an attempt of the central political power to bring to foreground a legislated structure integrated into the functioning of the republican state.
It seems (is it the same movement ?) that the first concern of integrated Churches is the one of the moral order, less than that of the practical access into spirituality by physical or mental exercise, as it is often the case in India, where physical dimension establishes the spiritual act towards divinity. In that case, mental questionning is secondary.
I am wondering about the problem of religion, or religions in the modern Indian State. The arrival of capitalism and rationalization of human rhythms, following terms of material profitability in this geographical space. So far, It has been emptiing out the lively forces out of Kerala towards the Gulf countries. The question for the culture upholders is not the one of variation of the rites and their changes, but simply their disappearance (the case of Tiyattu ; 3 performing families in1993, only 2 performers in 2008). The economic question is quite different, it is the one of profitability the market of spirituality. Man (as a body) being situated in the center of many spiritual practices often interpreted in West as " sacred theaters ".
There is a shift between spirituality and organized religion. Religions dont have the monopole of spirituality (the case of art in the West). We should be clear about the way we use the word ritual (individual or collective, repetitive series of operations), and spirituality , which sometimes is taken for granted as for its goal and meaning ( moksha ; paradise ; energy ; God / Goddess - as a gendered entity, etc...). Does society with its political legitimate power (including Religious Bodies) really integrate the possibility for individuals (or a group of people) to derive, alter, modify the social and economical planification ? Or is the fate of dissident spirituality to work far, to exceed the goals of a modern liberal society based on democracy and free market ?
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29. Swami. Vyasaprsad, Ooty.
I felt I was entering a New Age book shop. I guess professors and academics need neatly labeled categories to work with. Instead of an outsider trying to look inside, it would help to reverse the gaze.
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30. UNDERSTANDING THE DISSIDENT STREAMS IN SPIRITUALITY
[Theme-note for the workshop]
[Department of Philosophy,Sree Sankaracharya University of Sanskrit, Kalady, Kerala-
683574]
Though the concepts of religion and spirituality are not mutually exclusive, they often seem
to be at loggerheads with respect to ones priority over the other. Those who argue in
favor of religion consider it as a means for the realisation of the other. Whereas, the other
section would think the latter can exist independently of the former. This issue has
remained as a perpetual source of conflict within every religion.. However, when the
domain of spirituality is taken separately, it is seen to have a range of significance for life
outside the frame of religion. Such a perspective of spirituality has evoked a need for the
reconstruction of, or rethinking on the dominant conceptions of religious spirituality from
different quarters. It has also caused the denominational or sectarian divisions within the
established religions, paving way for the emergence of various reform movements. Viewing
the demand for religious reforms as a co-option or containment strategy, spiritual radicals
have called for the rejection of religion in favor of faith in the divinity. But there are
sections to view these changes rather as a reflection of dynamics of social realities and
other historical processes that take place in every society. Instead of confining the debate
on spirituality to the developments within the theological and denominational divisions, the
present proposal is to see the very dynamics of the concept of spirituality specifically.
Mysticism and the similar kind of deep-spirituality movements are often being
understood or identified as the dissenting voices within the organised religions; for their
challenges against the dry formalism, ritualism, and doctrinal absolutism and dogmatism
etc. At the same time the attributes like life negation, world denial, asceticism, other
worldliness, self-centeredness, pessimism, etc. are also ascribed to their traits in general.
However, it is to be debated whether these characterisations are suitable in the same way
for all the kinds of spiritual practices or perspectives of different cultures? If these traits
form the paradigm of spirituality, how do we understand the beliefs and practices that are
not conforming to this? Do we need to understand the spirituality in contra distinction to
religion alone? Do the beliefs and practices only form part of sheer non-spiritual ritualism?
Do all the ritual practices really form part of religion otherwise? How do we understand the
non-conformism of spirituality other then in terms of a critique of religion? Is there any
revival or recovery of spirituality within religion based on the issues other than theological
or ritualistic reasons? What are the possibilities of demarcating spirituality independently of
ecclesiastical reasons? Does every dissident stream of spirituality transcend the frame of
religion or fall back upon religiosity? How do we account the non-religious and non-
spiritual linkages of spiritual practices?
In order to explore the questions regarding the nature of dissident streams of spirituality, it
seems we need to address the specific practices in their specific contexts.
Focus of the Workshop
This workshop is the fourth one of its kind to be conducted by the co-ordinator towards
the direction of exploring the specificity and creativity of intellectual practices [of a region],
in relation to the extent of its conversancy with life-situation of the respective population.
This is also meant for drawing a broad perspective for a UGC Major Research Project on
The conceptual Dynamics of Religious and Spiritual Practices in Kerala: Towards a
Praxiological Analysis, which is being carried out by the co-ordinator. Therefore this
workshop shall be conducted with an emphasis on the spiritual practices of Kerala.
Co-ordinator,
P. K. Sasidharan
Email: pksasidharan@yahoo..com
Mob: 09447262817
Broad Areas of Attention.
Religion-Spirituality interface.
Religion, religiosity and spirituality
Dimensions of sanyasa.
Dimensions of spirituality
Spiritual reforms.
Secular spirituality.
Political spirituality.
Feminine spirituality.
Eco-spirituality.
Earth spirituality.
Dalit Spirituality.
Ethical spirituality.
Aesthetic spirituality.
Spirituality as religion.
Freedom spirituality.
Body oriented spirituality.
Civil religion,
Humanist religion.
Politics as spirituality.
Secular theology.
Liberation theology.
Negative theology.
New age spirituality
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